tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post3719944327414937123..comments2023-10-04T07:48:54.384-04:00Comments on oenoLogic: Dispatches from Naturaliathor iversonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16189098900228936573noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-5147879790071533422011-04-10T20:27:18.762-04:002011-04-10T20:27:18.762-04:00Just don't read out loud.Just don't read out loud.David Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-26479255702451897152011-04-10T20:12:04.479-04:002011-04-10T20:12:04.479-04:00That's not "silent."That's not "silent."thor iversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16189098900228936573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-458730402304556802011-04-10T19:20:35.180-04:002011-04-10T19:20:35.180-04:00We need a third-party candidate. Or a silent major...<i>We need a third-party candidate. Or a silent majority of moderation.</i><br /><br />AmenDavid Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-14011791714404502912011-04-10T13:56:36.631-04:002011-04-10T13:56:36.631-04:00@DB: I'm happy to be doctrinaire when it suits...@DB: I'm happy to be doctrinaire when it suits me, and criticize it when it doesn't. ;-)<br /><br />@The other DB: see above response.<br /><br />But seriously, I've long concluded that I really just like some wines and dislike others. Learning as much as possible about practice helped me develop a set of predictors of personal likability, and many of those are less-interventionist. The exceptions are numerous, of course, and that's why I can't be Alice. I think, for example, Boxler makes <i>great</i> wine, and while I can't criticize anyone for thinking otherwise, I can if they arbitrarily dismiss the house for procedural rather than organoleptic reasons.<br /><br />On continua, I've long argued that position regarding naturalia, and am in fact amidst a blog post saying exactly that. Though I've written it before, I'm pretty sure.<br /><br />All that said, I can argue the pro-natural side with vehemence because, like Keith, I think a lot of the arguments about it are disingenuous. Others are just knowledge-free (like the quote that let the piece). The former needs to be fought, but the latter needs to be more gently corrected than is typical from the hyper-doctrinairiat (there, I invented a word) that often dominate the conversation.<br /><br />We need a third-party candidate. Or a silent majority of moderation. Maybe a Unitarian Eucharist. One of those. ;-)thor iversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16189098900228936573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-17521372947554761962011-04-10T12:33:15.177-04:002011-04-10T12:33:15.177-04:00ultimately, as I've seesawed from, to, and bet...ultimately, as I've seesawed from, to, and between blind believer, to conscientious objector (and I'm somewhere in between again), I'll take a cue from one of Natural wine's greatest and most ardent supporters and promoters, who recently wrote me that "Natural wine is intention." As in Barthes' "writing degree zero," I do not believe there are absolutes here (and this is the greatest problem for the general public). But the bottom line is that I and we and she like the best the wines that [in]tend toward the Natural wine false absolute. Great post, Thor. As always. Your devoted fan, JDo Bianchihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12744434741371288465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-9044871160244504092011-04-10T11:09:54.630-04:002011-04-10T11:09:54.630-04:00How dare you try to bring sanity to what is a perf...How dare you try to bring sanity to what is a perfectly good partisan, mud-slinging debate. There must be definitions beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is not flax seed oil and arthritis balm. Interventions are the steroids of wine, and must be purged from the system.<br /><br />Seriously though. Nicely done, but I think you might be stepping in front of a very large rock that is rolling down a steep hill.David Bnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-88172492681399667312011-04-07T19:57:08.368-04:002011-04-07T19:57:08.368-04:00Thor,
If you have a utensil that will do better f...Thor,<br /><br />If you have a utensil that will do better for this grindstone, prey tell, please. The perpetual motion is getting a bit dull ;)<br /><br />The trouble with rigid definitions in the vineyard is that they invariably are confronted with two powerful forces: nature and the market. Don't ask me which is more powerful, 'cause I don't know. <br /><br />This subject certainly provides endless fodder for writers or for anyone with an ax(e) to grind--with or without your new utensil.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07322028233207741737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-4246466176313262062011-04-07T17:34:59.115-04:002011-04-07T17:34:59.115-04:00Would you like a new utensil to sharpen on that gr...Would you like a new utensil to sharpen on that grindstone, Thomas? ;-)<br /><br />I would be fine with biodynamic and organic having rigid definitions, actually. <i>Real</i> definitions, rather than something like the watered-down industrial-agriculture U.S. version of the latter.thor iversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16189098900228936573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-36440603259739801172011-04-07T16:24:49.801-04:002011-04-07T16:24:49.801-04:00That would be shudder...That would be shudder...Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07322028233207741737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-45000996279545239002011-04-07T13:07:38.461-04:002011-04-07T13:07:38.461-04:00Can't find anything with which to disagree, ei...Can't find anything with which to disagree, either with the original post or the comments that follow. That is a natural disaster!<br /><br />The way I view grape growing: labels like natural, conventional, interventionist, organic, biodynamic, or any other, if applied rigidly or exclusively show their true worth--not much. <br /><br />It also bothers me when people use such labels to make proclamations over matters that they have neither inclination nor desire to study beyond the confines of their couch or their mini insurgencies into vineyards as tourists or reporters gobbling up what they are told by the--shutter--marketing of labels.Thomashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07322028233207741737noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-42672056393279160422011-04-06T13:55:36.317-04:002011-04-06T13:55:36.317-04:00I completely agree, re: "natural." It...I completely agree, re: "natural." It's choosing to not act as often as possible, while still achieving the end result of wine (though sometimes, not even that ;-) ).<br /><br />As for the categorization, you could be right. At least, I hope you are. In practice, it doesn't seem to be working out that way. And maybe it never will, because the gap between, say, a Bourgeois Sancerre and a Riffault Sancerre that might be right next to each other on an integrated list is an awfully large chasm for the unprepared to leap.thor iversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16189098900228936573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-19136298420081703152011-04-06T10:45:12.133-04:002011-04-06T10:45:12.133-04:00Great essay. I like to think of "natural"...Great essay. I like to think of "natural" as a statement of intent rather than as an inventory of specific practices. As far as the separation of "natural" from "conventional" (for lack of a better word) on wine lists, I think this is a temporary condition having to do with the establishment of the category.The Wine Mulehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13056199373110048787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-70356682783078868602011-04-06T03:39:17.552-04:002011-04-06T03:39:17.552-04:00I've only ever tasted Wind Gap's "ora...I've only ever tasted Wind Gap's "orange" pinot gris. Gotta change that.thor iversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16189098900228936573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-3824458179592665532011-04-06T00:42:53.431-04:002011-04-06T00:42:53.431-04:00p.s. Interesting article, too. I was just out in ...p.s. Interesting article, too. I was just out in Sonoma talking to the folks at Wind Gap and Arnot-Roberts and ogling the concrete eggs they ferment their wines in. Natural they are, but they also make tasty wine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-23038564767349068462011-04-05T09:03:45.897-04:002011-04-05T09:03:45.897-04:00I could show you the study that proves my contenti...I could show you the study that proves my contention as to the shape of the distribution, but it was unsulfured and refermented in the data.thor iversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16189098900228936573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-62091034762832088762011-04-05T08:07:11.095-04:002011-04-05T08:07:11.095-04:00Are you certain that natural wines obey a Gaussian...Are you certain that natural wines obey a Gaussian distribution? Could it not be a Poisson or Lorentzian? Just curious...Mark Liptonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-23730696333049294462011-04-04T15:16:09.557-04:002011-04-04T15:16:09.557-04:00It's true that I've "won" argume...It's true that I've "won" arguments by incessant quibbling about the terminology. It's not admirable, but it can be effective. Without joining a psychic reading on motivations, I definitely agree that what you describe is how it looks to an observer.<br /><br />What's especially frustrating, to me, is the process by which inquiring about intervention is to be labeled anti-every-intervention-ever. To talk about "natural" is to be against anything other than naturally-occurring wine. And so forth. Again, we just can't handle nuance and ambiguity. I'm not against intervention; far from it. I drink much more non-natural wine than natural wine. But if I laud either non-intervention or "natural," I'm suddenly responsible for the entirety of stupid commentary made by anyone on either subject, especially if it's extreme and reactionary?<br /><br />No thanks.thor iversonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16189098900228936573noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19631515.post-33731918274502870992011-04-04T10:59:44.137-04:002011-04-04T10:59:44.137-04:00Great post. My own theory why the term "natur...Great post. My own theory why the term "natural" is so rankling to the crowd who have never met an intervention they don't like is that they're trying, in Orwellian fashion, to shut down debate on the merits of what they're doing. (Witness the fact that they're similarly rankled by the term "intervention," even as they unapologetically defend it.) As the inventors of Newspeak recognized, once we eliminate words, we eliminate our ability to discuss or even think about the concepts those words represent. It's sort of the same idea as the "No Labels" movement.keithlevenberghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00556819801189301362noreply@blogger.com